Thanks so much to all for your feedback and comments. We love the contrary views and many of your posts are well thought out and well informed.
For example we learned that Desert Sun is moving towards Core Knowledge this fall. This is excellent news and an excellent start!
Please remember we don't have all the information or all the answers but understand that we are not anti-tax, NIMBY's, or anti-children. We are not asking for administrator's heads or governing board resignations.
We understand that world class schools in our area will benefit all.
Thanks again!
Maybe you should get "all the information" before you post. Most information can be found on CCUD's website or school pages. If it's not, send an email to find out. It is not in anyone's best interest for the blog to be negative or sarcastic.
ReplyDeleteThere are parents who are looking to this blog and taking your word verbatim. Yet, you are completely anonymous and there is no way to know if you are credible or not. We just have to take your word, via your profile, of who makes up your blog crew. And, while you claim to not be a PAC, and perhaps you technically haven't collected enough to be considered a PAC, there is no question that you actively posted signs against last year's bond vote and you may very well be teetering on being a PAC.
ReplyDeleteI suggest that any parent who looks at this blog, take all opinions with a grain of salt. At this point, you are just an anonymous blogger, no more, no less.
Dear "June 5, 2008 8:07 PM",
ReplyDeleteWe absolutely did not post signs at the last election.
The only signs we noticed were from someone clearly reusing them from elections in the past since it referenced 3 issues when only 2 issues were on the ballot.
Our reference to not being a PAC is a poke at the failed CCSOS website which claimed the same.
Agreed that everything should be taken with a grain of salt.
Clearly we are not afraid of discourse and every and all opinions are welcome. We do not censor and everyone is free to post anonymously or not (BTW, haven't seen a non-anonymous post yet).
If anyone has an article or opinion that they would like posted up front, email it to us at ccusdwatch@hotmail.com. Feel free to be critical. Our skin is thick enough.
Sorry to "accuse" you of posting signs if it wasn't you. Somebody did under the guise of being parents and teachers against the bond.
ReplyDeleteI am pleased to have your blog to question your group with. It's sort of like a "CCUSD Watch" Watch to me. But I am troubled that not one of the specific questions I've asked has been answered yet. Your forum, your perogative.
ReplyDeleteBut "WATCHING" is pretty passive business. What is your group actively "DOING" to improve student achievement in CCUSD?
Your support for Core Knowlegde seems clear. Is Core Knowledge your only specific answer for CCUSD? Maybe it's a great way of teaching and learning. But if, as your group contends, it's all about the curriculum, then how do you account for falling math and reading scores at your #1 ranked surrounding school? I believe they are a Core Knowledge charter.
You don't seem to want to acknowledge that there are real variables that impact student achievement like special ed populations, free/reduced lunch status, class size, language learner status.
If none of those factors are of value in explaining discrepancies, to what do you attribute declining scores in your #1 school?
When you openly asked parents to contact you to recommend schools out of CCUSD where performance is better, have you noted the declines? Given any explanation for them?
I question your dislike of Everyday Mathematics.
ReplyDeleteWe moved here from Wilton Connecticut. It was considered by many to be the top district in Connecticut. It uses Everyday Mathematics. Here are some links that explain the district's commitment to the program:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pfsf/is_199711/ai_198155725
http://www.wilton.k12.ct.us/district/curriculum/K12Curriculum_Overview.htm
On the second link, you will need to scroll down to the mathematics section.
We were actually quite relieved to see Everyday Mathematics being used by CCUSD when we moved here. So I am very surprised by your scorn for the program. It seems to be used quite successfully by many districts and has worked well for our children.
Also, I never even heard of "core knowledge" until I lived in Arizona. And, btw, the first person to mention core knowledge to me was Tacy Ashby. If you and any other concerned parents/teachers try to talk with her, you will discover as I did that she wants to hear what you have to say and is extremely approachable. I don't know that I am sold on core knowledge yet as the concept is still a bit foreign to me, but it is something that Tacy is thinking about.
Last of all, I want to provide a link to Wilton, Connecticut's budget. The district is smaller, both in area covered and number of students, yet its budget is more than twice that of CCUSD. Such a generous budget allows it to meet both the needs of the students (they focus on small class size which I personally feel is the most important factor in making sure each student is fully educated) and the administrative demands placed on it by NCLB and other government requirements.
Here is the link: http://www.wilton.k12.ct.us/district/reports/BUDGET/0809budget/0809_BOEapprovedbudget.pdf
CCUSD, like all Arizona districts, is extremely hampered by budget constraints. While you seem to claim it is a problem of curriculum, we find the curriculum extremely similar to the curriculum provided in Wilton. What we don't see is the money that would support Wilton's class sizes. We think that if there are problems in this district, it has less to do with the curriculum as you contend and more to do with class size, lack of resources and lack of funding.
Best argument against EM you will ever see...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr1qee-bTZI
Dear "June 6, 2008 10:01 AM",
ReplyDeleteMaybe you could come up with an alias so it would be easier to find and follow your posts. Thanks!
"But "WATCHING" is pretty passive business. What is your group actively "DOING" to improve student achievement in CCUSD?
We are managing this blog. Is getting out information valueless?
Your support for Core Knowlegde seems clear. Is Core Knowledge your only specific answer for CCUSD? Maybe it's a great way of teaching and learning. But if, as your group contends, it's all about the curriculum, then how do you account for falling math and reading scores at your #1 ranked surrounding school? I believe they are a Core Knowledge charter.
Like we responded, we feel the curriculum choices explain the majority of the disparity between CCUSD and some directly adjacent schools. Just go look at the piss poor standards the district finally (after we raised the issue) posted on the website. Even the state standards they link to are more in depth and demanding. Maybe they have changed these and updated them or are working on new ones. If so great.
You don't seem to want to acknowledge that there are real variables that impact student achievement like special ed populations, free/reduced lunch status, class size, language learner status.
Asked and answered. BTW, didn't CCUSD recently claim they have the lowest class sizes of all surrounding districts?
If none of those factors are of value in explaining discrepancies, to what do you attribute declining scores in your #1 school?
When you openly asked parents to contact you to recommend schools out of CCUSD where performance is better, have you noted the declines? Given any explanation for them?
Is down 2 points and up 1 point (math) while up in the reading, language really a declining trend? You posted that Valley Academy\Grayhawk\Pinnacle Peak were up in all areas over the past three years. Those are close schools that are accepting lottery\open enrollment. We are not here to drive parents and children to other schools, but if I am a parent and trying to evaluate schools should I go to the one with the best test scores or the one with lower scores but higher ELL percentages?
Thanks for taking the time to answer. I appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteYou asked "if I am a parent and trying to evaluate schools should I go to the one with the best test scores or the one with lower scores but higher ELL percentages?"
If you are a parent (Are you?), I'd ask you to look at how the school is providing for the growth of your child on the whole. Not just as it is measured in test scores. Maybe that's where we differ.
I don't want to judge a school based on scores alone. I want to see what else they can offer my kids to help them grow up to be well rounded people, test scores won't tell you much about that I'm afraid.
If you want me to look at scores, I can play that game too. I've pulled my kids scores from 2007 from my files. My own two average kids (without the benefit of Core Knowledge and with the "piss poor" standards you reference) somehow managed to score pretty well by your standards of high 70's/80's -with both in the 80's. In fact, my youngest, who began Everyday Math in kinder, scored 84 on the TerraNova math section last year.
So if you'd ask me as a parent to look only at scores to judge how well this system has worked for my kids, I'd have to say it looks to be working fairly well thanks.
As to your saying managing a blog is your active role in improving student achievement, fine. But I'd point out this is a strange stance since in your own reply to a previous blog entry of another poster you doubted the impact of tech on student achievement at all.
I have observed your discussions and debates on the feasability of Everyday Math, as well as other curricula. One of my questions, and there will be many; what math curricula do you recommend? If EM is so bad, what is your suggestion to best serve the students of this district? What do you propose to help our students learn and grow their math skills? You are full of criticism but I haven't seen any solutions. Should we abandon EM and technology in favor of an Abacus and wrote multiplication tables?
ReplyDeleteSeveral years ago when the district was evaluating plans to improve our performance in math; many educators and parents spent countless hours/days evaluating several programs. They felt that Everyday Math offered the most potential for improving our students performance and helping them to better understand higher level math. You act like they made this decision haphazardly. You also act like they had something to gain from it.
Back then we didn't even have the tools or technology we have now to evaluate each individual student's performance. Teachers and parents were genuinely trying to help their kids.
As one blogger commented, the current 9th grade test scores are from students that only had the benefit of 1 year of the EM Program. Our test scores prior to EM would drop dramatically at 8th grade and slowly rebound in 10th grade. Please keep in mind this was at the beginning of the AIMS/NCLB mess. Much of the data and information was sketchy at best. There was very little analysis of the results. Hell back then the state couldn't get test results back in less than 4 months.
The district wanted to help our students improve and grow.
I challenge you the "Watchers" to evaluate districts such as Kyrene that had been using EM for several years and had conclusive data that it was working.
I know you feel you know best, but Kyrene and other districts in the state had been using EM or what it was called then the "Chicago Math" for many years and have data that would dispute your "opinions." Almost 10 years later, Kyrene is still recognized as one of the best performing districts in the state.
I also have to wonder about some of your "20 ways to improve the District." Latin? Not unless you are going to be a priest. Greek? Even in Greece they are teaching English. Maybe you should get outside of the confines of "Cave Creek Unified" and see the world. In most countries, the students learn their native tongue and English. The world powers send their students to the US for Higher Education. Instead of Greek/Latin how about Aramaic?? Seriously, if you want to help our students, focus on real skills such as public speaking, interviewing,working as part of team. There is more to life than test scores; but you can't decide whether or not testing is valid. When the test results favor the efforts of this district, you discount them. When they don't they are sent down from the mount on stone tablets. I eagerly await your responses before I confound you with more questions. Maybe you should all congregate at "Harold's" to contemplate your answers.
No, Kyrene does not use Everyday Math. They use SFAW Mathematics. They also use TERC as a supplement.
ReplyDeleteHere are the math curriculum's of the schools in discussion. Not sure if these are all correct...
ReplyDeleteBenchmark School, Inc. Benchmark School - Singapore Math
Paradise Valley Unified District Grayhawk Elementary School - Harcourt Math
Valley Academy, Inc. Valley Academy - Saxon
Scottsdale Unified District Copper Ridge Elementary School ??? Could be EM
Paradise Valley Unified District Pinnacle Peak Elementary - Harcourt Math
CASY Country Day School CASY Country Day School #1 - Custom designed based on Saxon
Paradise Valley Unified District Copper Canyon Elementary School - ??? Harcourt
Cave Creek Unified District Lone Mountain Elementary School - EM
Cave Creek Unified District Desert Willow Elementary School - EM
Cave Creek Unified District Desert Sun Elementary School - EM
Cave Creek Unified District Black Mountain Elementary School - EM
Cave Creek Unified District Horseshoe Trails Elementary School - EM
I asked similiar questions on 6/5 under the "Test Score Revisited" entry. I'll repost it here.
ReplyDelete----------------------------------
It's easy to say "dump Everyday Math in favor of something with mastery"*.
What specifically do you want to see used?
How will you judge success?
How long are you willing to give teachers and students to bring up the scores once the things YOU want adopted are in place?
Math curriculum has to be up for adoption review soon as it's been in place for 6 years. Be ready to bring your ideas to the table. But be sure you have resarch/facts before you show up. Look at cohort groups. Compare apples to apples. Look at upward and downward scores and ask/know why.
*By the way, I would argue that there is mastery in EM. It's different than how we learned math for sure, but it's there. Mastery isn't attained in the year new concepts are introduced in EM but it's there in a subsequent year in the spiral. I would equate that to learning to read. Do you expect mastery of all reading skills in one year? That learning spirals as well with just as many complex skills/strategies.
Your solutions list has 2 other things about which I need clarification.
ReplyDeleteYou are advocating for differentiation where kids are split into separate rooms and for gifted pull-out. Why?
You've already stated your group doesn't believe other factors are at play in achievement as you maintain it's ALL about the curriculum.
Are you proposing different curriculum's for use with each group? Based on what criteria, ability level? If so then it doesn't appear to ALL about the curriculum afterall.
How does that maintain high expectations for all? How is it not segregation?
Again, thanks for the opportunity to air these thoughts.
Dear CCUSD Watch,
ReplyDeleteI also have questions for you. They mostly apply to the composition of your group. While you have chosen to stay anonymous (are you really worried about us "soccer ball packing moms?") it is only fair that we get an idea of the type of people that make up your group instead of the vague moniker of parents, students and teachers. Here are my questions:
1) How many parents sit on CCUSD Watch?
2)How many of those parents have children that attend a CCUSD school?
3) How many teachers sit on CCUSD Watch?
4) How many of those teachers teach at a CCUSD school?
5) How many of the parents and teachers that are on CCUSD watch have ever currently or in the past, participated in site council for a CCUSD school?
6) How many CCUSD students are part of CCUSD Watch? What is their age range?
7) If none of you participates in a site council (groups of parents and teachers at each school that helps to determine the future direction and curriculum for the school), why not if you are truly concerned for the curriculum?
8) If you do participate in site council, is there anything that frustrates you with the process of working as part of a team that makes you want to try to circumvent it through the use of this blog?
I will use a moniker from now on to help you identify me. I am also looking to put together a blog of my own by late this summer that will be a place for parents that want to present a more balanced view of the district to post. If I do so, I will not do it anonymously. I know of many parents besides myself that are proud to get recognition for the positive steps that this district is taking.
Honeymom
I have just had a chance to watch the youtube video suggested on Everyday Math and here are my comments:
ReplyDelete1) I am not sure that one meteorologists opinion, no matter how well she speaks, is definitive or backed by substance as to whether the program works.
2) I realized while watching her presentation, that my two children are not being educated verbatim in Everyday Mathematics. Their schools have also taught them the standard algorithims and supplement the EM program. Perhaps CCUSD (or at least my kids schools) are wiser than you give than credit for and recognize some possible weaknesses in the program.
3) I don't think the Meteorologist recognized one of the main benefits of the program. It gives a broad array of students, some who might not understand the standard algorithems, different ways to work out problems. For example, one of my neighbors once told me that her son, who had always had problems with math, was finally doing well with the lattice method.
I also understand parents frustration with the lattice method. I have two very bright kids (one gifted, the other gets anxious testing but is equally brilliant). I have always had a natural ability for math (placed out of needing to take it in college), but was completely baffled by the lattice method. I contacted my daughter's teacher, and she easily explained it to me.
4) In today's world, knowing how to work with a calculator or computer is valuable and should not be looked down on. I agree that it shouldn't replace basic math skills, but having had a math intensive job at one point, I can tell you that doing it by hand or in my head, would not have cut it.
5) Learning to apply different methods and reasoning to problems, helps to prepare kids to apply reasoning in all areas of life, not just math. For instance, lawyers need good reasoning skills and it is a large part of the LSAT.
Honeymom
Thanks for your posts Honeymom. Now we will be able to better identify them and follow your threads.
ReplyDeleteThis meteorologists is not the only one pointing out the flaws in Everyday Math. Both the California and Texas Board of Education have rejected EM for use in there classrooms.
Many others are pointing out the flaws. A good resource is here...
Reviews of UCSMP Everyday Mathematics
Teacher supplementation of EM seems spotty based on the teacher. Some do a good job supplementing and some do not.
Why not just have a curriculum that needs no supplementation to begin with? Don't our teachers have enough to worry about?
"You've already stated your group doesn't believe other factors are at play in achievement as you maintain it's ALL about the curriculum"
ReplyDeleteNot sure that we have ever said that it was all about the curriculum.
We have raised other issues such as the governing board infighting, the low percentage of classroom dollars, the district's obsession with new buildings, relatively low teacher pay, etc...
Dear "June 6, 2008 8:50 PM",
ReplyDelete"They felt that Everyday Math offered the most potential for improving our students performance and helping them to better understand higher level math."
So can you show us the evidence that after 5 years, EM has improved student performance?
Looks like Kyrene dumped EM in favor of a dual curriculum approach.
Overview of New Math Curriculum
Perhaps you are feeling a bit of what the district likely feels...everyone wants an answer that best serves ALL children, but it's just not that easy is it?
ReplyDeleteI believe you to be honestly concerned with curriculum, but you'll need answers:
-What math curriculum does your group endorse?
-How long will you allow it to work?
-How will you judge its effectiveness?
-Differentiation/pull-out on what basis? You can't sort kids based on low teacher pay, board in fighting, classroom dollars and building obsessions. So based on what criteria do you suppose the district should pigeon hole kids?
-What one curriculum are you seeking to meet the needs of all learners?
I believe you also have every right to be concerned with board in fighting, money issues, teacher low pay, again you'll need to answer:
-Who from your group will step up and run for school board to get the board moving in the right direction?
-How can your group help CCUSD see the error in their financial ways or increase funding or alternatively help the state see more funding is needed to adequately educate the children of this state?
-How can your group advance the issue of low teacher pay? And are you sure that higher pay will bring you more effective teachers or improved student achievement? I'm not knocking it, pay teachers more. But if your group contends that student demographics don't impact achievement, can you be sure teacher pay does?
If any of this blogging is helping you to make your advocacy for kids in CCUSD stronger, I welcome the opportunity. But I've yet to hear how you are "doing" anything other than questioning. I don't oppose questioning. I encourage my kids to question as that's the only way to find answers. But ultimately answers have to be found. Will you help provide them?
"June 8, 2008 12:40 PM" wrote,
ReplyDelete"Perhaps you are feeling a bit of what the district likely feels...everyone wants an answer that best serves ALL children,"
Perhaps, but we don't see this.
We see a district focused on bonds, overrides, new buildings, managing PR, examining election results, governing board infighting, etc...
Look at the governing board meeting minutes from this school year. I defy anyone to point out where the governing board and administration has had substantive discussions on how to directly improve academic achievement.
Look at the Committees and Task Forces in the district. With the exception of the New High School, none of them even met this school year.
All we got this year was all our schools are EXCELLING, so everything must be fine academically. Well its not.
You know you're little group is quite difficult to figure out. At times I think you are rational and may be truly concerned about our students; and then I read and re-read some of your older posts and can't decide whether you are lazy educators or elitists. All I see you talking about are the gifted and honors students. You claim "We need latin and calculus and Harvard educated instructors." What about the general population of students? They account for more than 85% of the population, yet your posts and articles focus on the 5-10% that "might" qualify as gifted. If you really feel we have challenges with the curriculum, how are all of these highly selective/borderline segregated programs going to help the bulk of our students? Do you just not care about them? Or you don't want to waste your precious time with them?
ReplyDeleteI do agree with you that we have overplayed the "Excelling" card. In years past we would get the other test results from the district, and CCUSD always performed well locally nationally on the SAT and ACT tests.
It would be nice to see the comparisons on those now, but this state only focuses on the AIMS test.
I will post as TDBR for you to track back to my posts.
I agree that the board needs to stop the in fighting after looking at the minutes. It is very disruptive and it is taking time away from more pertinant matters.
ReplyDeleteWhat strikes me is that some of the in fighting seems to be happening over general boe policy disagreement. Aren't there bylaws/policy guidelines in place for the board to follow? If so, why aren't they following them? If not, I would say that that fixing boe policy should be the boe's number one charge right now, so that they can then focus on the business of the district. There are many more successful boe's that can be looked at as models.
I do agree with other posters that if you really care about change in this district, someone from your group needs to come forward and join the process of change for the district. While it is fine to pay lip service to change, it falls short of actual participation in making the change happen.
I would still ask that you give a better idea as to your group's composition. I hope I was not asking those questions in vain. But, imagining that I am writing to a teenage blogger whose parents and teachers who are supporting his efforts is just not cutting it for me. You may be a brilliant teenager who is successfully pulling many viewpoints from Education Watch, but you may have more teeth on these subjects as well. I think that you are perhaps somewhat more experienced since you seem very good at answering what you want to, and ignoring the rest until they are so buried in the posts that they disappear.
I still disagree with you on Everyday Math and I think that our students need to learn Chinese before Latin. I will also need a lot more convincing on Core Knowledge. Perhaps I don't understand it yet, but I envision a day where kids taught Core Knowledge are missing something that isn't at the Core.
Honeymom
You said... "We see a district focused on bonds, overrides, new buildings, managing PR, examining election results, governing board infighting, etc..."
ReplyDeleteI'd ask...Do any of those people actually "teach" children in this district?
This watch troubles me not for what you do see but rather for what you choose to avoid seeing.
What you don't appear to see are CCUSD teachers focusing on using assessment & data to drive instruction and to improve student achievement. Someone at district level is clearly requiring this effort...who might that be?
Those folks can't only be focused on your 3B's - budgeting, building and battling. Could it be that they are requiring data because they do in fact have a vital interest in the 3R's - reading, 'riting and 'rithmetic?
Worse yet, you don't appear to see the students in this picture much do you? Discounting demographics, ability levels and everything else that goes with "real kids" seems to pass by your group as well unless of course we are talking about gifted identification. That seems to be a factor that your group does consider to be valid.
Interesting.
Hi June 8, 2008 9:49 PM,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your post.
You wrote...
What you don't appear to see are CCUSD teachers focusing on using assessment & data to drive instruction and to improve student achievement. Someone at district level is clearly requiring this effort...who might that be?
As we had said in the past, when teachers are hampered by poor curriculum choices, it doesn't matter how hard they work.
With all of this 'focus', have you seen improved student achievement in the district?
Yes, I've seen improvements.
ReplyDeleteHave you stopped into the schools to ask to see any data other than year end standardized test results? There are other measures of improvement/achievement out there. Are you aware of them?
An article for your consideration:
More colleges move toward optional SATs (CNN)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/05/30/test.drop/index.html?iref=newssearch
Your thoughts?
Dear "June 9, 2008 10:32 AM",
ReplyDelete"Have you stopped into the schools to ask to see any data other than year end standardized test results?"
Such as?
More colleges move toward optional SATs
Here is a great article about schools that are dropping the SAT scores from admission requirements.
Abandoning The SAT - Fraud or Folly?
I asked: "Have you stopped into the schools to ask to see any data other than year end standardized test results?"
ReplyDeleteTaking this to be a "no" to my question, you wrote back: "Such as?"
I'd come back, you have teachers and admin in your group. Ask them to tell you about the data that is being collected, charted, and acted upon all year long.
If that fails, call the schools and ask the principals what sort of data they routinely collect.
If that fails, ask the kids and their parents. At elementary school we've seen lots of things tracked for our kid. Better yet, the kids are tracking themselves. Many know where they are and where they need to reach. We've even received a page of benchmark data at each quarter along with the report card. Very helpful.